Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseSo says the puffed-up victor...
Why does the victor have to be "puffed up"? (BTW, I am not an Israeli,
or a Jew, and personally don't give Israel a lot of thought
day-today).
Only an arrogant victor would claim such things. A country more humble,
rational and humane would allow the indigenous people to live in dignity
and peace, not in occupation.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseUN resolutions call for Israel's withdrawal. But when did Israel
ever abide by UN resolutions?
Or anyone else, for that matter? (Or are you only going to draw the
line at Israel?)
I'm sure nations will do what is in their interest. Sometimes that may
mean abiding by UN resolutions -- or not.
But I remember Israel whining about Lebanon failing to abide by some UN
resolution that called for the disarmament of Hezbollah... an
impossible, resolution, by the way, since Hezbollah is more powerful
than the Lebanese government, and the Lebanese government is really
quite weak. And also a resolution that was rashly pushed through by the
US on behalf of Israel years after Israel's withdrawal from Lebanon.
But Israel whined and whined about this... like they were angels who
abided by all UN resolutions, when if anything, they are quite brazen
about not abiding by any of them themselves.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseIf Israel wants to steal people's homelands, then it has chosen the
path of conflict. You can't pretend to wish for peace and go on a
land-grab campaign. People who don't want to be oppressed by
outsiders will naturally fight back.
This is no "land grab." This is land taken in a war, land which was
partly given back, to no effect. But again, that's Israel's fault,
right?
It seems impossible to convince folks like you but it is certainly a
land-grab in my book of morals, justice and ethics.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseMore poignantly, if Israel wants to keep the land, then shouldn't it
embrace the people who live on the land into its own society?
Is it just and humanitarian to keep the land yet force the
Palestinians to live in oppression and as second class citizens?
The oppression of the Palestinians comes from within.
I strongly disagree. History says otherwise. Read up on it.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseIf Israel wishes to keep the W. Bank, Gaza and E. Jerusalem... Okay.
But allow the Palestinians to become Israeli citizens. Don't try to
push them out. Don't force them to live in humiliation, poverty and
oppression without a state.
Honestly, I have no idea if they want to be citizens or not? And I
have no idea how Israel feels about it, either. Certainly, they'd be
better off as part of Israel than as part of their former arab lands
or as independents.
See, you really don't understand the politics over there, obviously.
In ~1947, the British were struck with a pang of conscience and decided
against creating a separate Jewish state for Jews only. The Zionists
wouldn't hear of it and fought the British.
The Arabs, from the beginning, wanted a single state, shared by
everyone.
Recently, even the "crazy" Iranian President said that Israel (including
the Palestinians in the occupied territories) should hold elections...
and let whatever happen, happen. Let the people (everyone) decide on
the form of government.
I'd bet that the average Palestinian would love to have a single state
in ALL of Palestine, including Israel, shared by ALL.
Arabs don't hate Jews. They hate the Zionist state. Do you know what
the difference is? The Zionist state is by nature racist and bigoted.
Yes, Arabs live and are citizens in Israel, but they are a minority --
and Zionists wish to keep it that way.
Why won't Israel allow Palestinians who were kicked out of Israel proper
to return? Why won't Israel allow all Palestinians Israeli citizenship?
Because that would mean the end of the "Jewish" state.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseIf the US after defeating Germany and Japan began colonizing their
country, stealing their farmlands and treating the locals like 2nd
class citizens, would you expect the civilians to stand pat?
It doesn't matter what one EXPECTS, only whether they would be within
their rights to keep the land. My answer is "yes, of course." That
doesn't mean we would want to hold that land, and I think (or course)
we did the right thing. But Germany and Japan aren't right next door
to us, and we are not a small, narrow country that would be easy to
overrun.
No, it's not within America's "right" to occupy and oppress those it has
conquered. Can it do it? Sure. If it wants to live with animosity
from the locals.... and perhaps occasional uprising and fighting...
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseThis isn't the 13th century. You cannot morally justify colonization
and oppression based on "winning the war."
Sure you can. Besides, you seem to be morally justifying terrorism..
There's no need to morally justify anything. War is cruel. Both
"terrorists" and nation-states target civlians at times... and sometimes
lots of times, in the case of Israel too.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseDefenders of Israel seem to live by the perverted logic that says "to
the victor goes the spoils" and "to hell with ethics, humanity and
morality."
That's just a lot of nonsense rhetoric. AFA morality, as the old
saying goes, if the arabs disarmed tomorrow, there would be no more
war. If the Israelis disarmed tomorrow, there would be no more Israel.
That was as true before the occupation of arab lands as it is today.
And that is the absolute truth.
How armed are the Arabs? It's ridiculous. The Palestinians have
NOTHING except their bodies to fight back with. Israel whining about
their "existential threat" is complete nonsense. Israel has the
strongest army in the Middle East. Stronger than all the Arab nations
combined, especially now with the demise of Iraq! Israel is also backed
by the only super-power in the world. Any talk of Israel's existential
threat is bunk and a farce. It's laughable.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseIt doesn't work and only earns it worldwide blame.
Jew-hatred is the true source of this "righteous indignation" the
world has toward Israel.
No it isn't.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseAlso, the Arabs didn't start all the wars with Israel. This is a lie
that is continually perpetuated. The 1967 war was started by Israel.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_sixday_whostarted.php
http://peace.heebz.com/sixdaywar.html
Yeah, a pro-Israeli site. And there are also pro-arab sites.
So what? Do you believe everything you hear/read in the media?
Filter out the nonsense and believe what makes sense.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseThe Suez Canal war was started by the UK, France and Israel. The
invasion of Lebanon in 1982 was conducted by Israel. And this last
conflict with Lebanon? Of course, that war was started by Israel
too, despite what Bush says. The excuse about the soldiers being
kidnapped by Hezbollah is a joke. The two sides have had ongoing
skirmishes for years. The kidnapping was merely a pretext for an
invasion it was planning for a long time.
And why did Israel want to attack Lebanon? You seem to know they
intended to do that, so tell me WHY? To what end?
I don't know why Israel wanted to attack Lebanon recently. The facts
aren't all clear yet.
If you read Seymour Hersh recently, it's because the US and Israel were
colluding to go after Iran and Syria.
Others have suggested that Israel simply wanted revenge on Hezbollah.
Others suggest maybe Israel wanted to expand up to the Litani river to
get access to more water. (Water is a big reason why Israel won't give
up the W. Bank and the Golan Heights... there's a terrible shortage
there.)
Others suggest Israel wanted to bomb Lebanon back 10 years to reduce
future economic competition.
Who the hell knows right now... I guess we'll be reading about it in
the future...
Post by Fred HebertIt's all those dirty Jews, right? How convenient to be able to
continually blame the Israelis for whatever happens. They attack, it's
their fault; they are attacked, it's their fault.
As long as Israel continues it's occupation, they're out of the gate,
the aggressor and in the wrong as a result.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseYou don't start a full scale war just because a couple soldiers were
kidnapped! Kidnappings and hostages are not uncommon with the
Israelis and Arabs. They've conducted prisoner exchanges before.
Israel has been unjustly holding THOUSANDS of Lebanese and
Palestinian prisoners, many underage, for years!
Israel had every right to attack Hezbolla, and the land that harbored
them. Who are the "unjustly" held Lebanese and Palestinians?
Prisoners from previous wars or skirmishes. They're held without trial.
Just held... for the indefinite future.
If Israel has a right to attakc Hezbollah.. then Hezbollah certainly has
a right to attack Israel. Israel occupies Lebanon's Shebaa Farms.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseAnd, to be sure, Israel has no legitimate excuse for bombing civilian
infrastructures in Lebanon. They are correctly condemned for that.
Sure, and Hezbolla hiding behind civilians, storing weapons in
civilian areas and even hiding behind the UN is OK, right?
So because Hezbollah is in the wrong by hiding behind civilians...
Israel has a right to kill civilians wantonly?
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseIsrael left Gaza, technically, but encroached further in the W. Bank.
Gaza was also blockaded economically by sea and air. The people were
left as virtual prisoners with no means of livelihood.
They left them "technically"? How did they live them "technically"?
You mean they left, correct? And then they were attacked, which is one
of the reasons they held the land in the first place.
I explained this already. Creating an economic blockade is not doing
anyone any favors.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseIt's no wonder the Palestinians in Gaza began to retaliate.
Sure, because arabs are innocent victims, always.
Why don't you try to be a little more objective? Figure out who did
what.. how this mess all got started... trace history back to its
origins... and step forward to the present.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseWhat's more, since the democratic election of Hamas, Israel and the
West began to financially and economically squeeze the new government
and the Palestinians too as a result. They were poor and suffering
as it was. In the wake of the financial/economic starvation, they
suffered further. Israel also began carrying out targeted
assassinations and kidnappings against Palestinian.
As well they should. Targeted assasinations against terrorists is a
good thing. We need more assasinations in this world.
Targeting politicians.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseIs it any wonder the Palestinians retaliated with kidnappings of
their own?
But..I'm confused..I thought you said they ALWAYS do that sort of
thing? Now it was just a "retaliation"?
Yes. Tit for tat... back and forth... on and on... as long as Israel's
occupation continues...
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseIf Israel was really serious about peace, it would take up the Saudi
Peace Plan offer: withdrawal to the 1967 borders and in return, get
diplomatic recognition and peace from all Arab states. Isn't this
what Israel says it really wants, ie, peace and diplomatic
recognition?... to just live in peace?
What do you expect: that they don't? Israel would do that if they
weren't very sure that it would result in their own destruction. Can
you honestly, as a reasonable person, say that that would not be the
eventual outcome?
Yes, knowing that US backs them... knowing that Israel has the most
powerful military in the Middle East... knowing that the world is
watching.... it's a certainty.
Why would returning to the 1967 borders result in their destruction?
Don't repeat nonsense.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseBut Israel dismissed the offer from the outset. It never seriously
considered the offer.
Or continue the talks left off at Taba. They were very close to a
peace deal then, but Sharon shelved it.
What about the deal offered to Yasser Arafat? What was his response?
Obviously, you haven't a clue what was "offered" at Camp David!
The generous offer to Arafat at Camp David were four divided cantons
with no water, border or air rights! How could Arafat accept such a
ridiculous, farcical offer? How is that the basis of a "state"??!!
But the US media and the Israelis touted the offer as something generous
and ground breaking.
Don't believe everything you read and hear. THINK through it!
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseWhen all is said and done, Israel's actions belie her words. It
wants peace but it wants land more. And the extremists and the
advocates of "Greater Israel" in that Jewish state will do its
darndest to make sure of that.
And there is NO DOUBT that the arabs would destroy Israel if they
could. In fact, I will go so far as to say that Israel WILL BE
destroyed, eventually.
After what Israel has perpetrated since 1967... it would only be karma
if Israel were destroyed. But the destruction of Israel doesn't mean
Jews cannot stay there. It just means the destruction of the Zionist
state, which is a good thing in my book. A state based on bigotry and
racism is nothing to be proud of.
I don't blame Arabs for hating Israel. Israel, as I've said before, is
the occupying/oppressing power. Naturally, Arabs will resent them.
If Israel wants to survive as a state, it ought to do the right thing
and cede the occupied territories.
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseThe world doesn't fundamentally hate the Jews. But by the actions
that Israel is taking, it's certainly creating resentment towards the
state.
Bull_fucking_shit! The world has hated Jews forever. This isn't
because of Israel. Antisemitism has always been.
The world?? The world is a big place. There's some historical
animosity between Christianity, Judaism, and Islam... but why should
others have a reason to be anti-semitic without cause?
Post by Fred HebertPost by zoseIf Israel did the right thing, you'd see how quickly it's
"favorability rating" turns up.
People do tend to speak well of the dead..
You're so melodramatic.
Jews are no longer the victims here. It's the Arabs who are the victims
of the victims of European history.